Mur Lafferty: We also have other prizes. We have various Red Storm Entertainment t-shirts (holds up shirts) . . . and we do have two spaces for Anne McCaffrey's Freedom: First Resistance beta test . . .We'll continue with the intros, then. My name's Mur Lafferty, I am the webmaster/internet manager for Red Storm Entertainment. I also am a former columnist for GameGirlz.com.

Rachelle Udell: I'm Rachelle Udell, I sometimes go by R. Sabrina or Sabrina. (Katharine returns to panel seat.) I am the new developer of Mage: The Sorcerers Crusade, and I've also done a lot of freelance work with the regular Mage: The Ascension game for White Wolf.

Cynthia Summers: I was a late addition, apparently. (laughs) My name is Cynthia Summers. I work for White Wolf Games. I'm the Mind's Eye creative developer. I also edit a great deal, and I've written a great deal. Some of my credits include Vampire: The Dark Ages, Clanbook: Salubri, Wraith: The Oblivion - Shadow Player's Guide, Vampire: Revised and Guide to the Camarilla.

Mur: So, the way this worked last year was basically I sat up here and threw some ideas out that we wanted people to talk about. Because, really, we wanted this to be more of a roundtable discussion, even though there's only one table here.

Katharine: And it's not round. (Audience laughs.)

Mur: It's not round! (More laughter.) But we wanted it to be more of a roundtable discussion, and we'll try to moderate [and] steer the conversations, but really also want to hear what you have to say. We actually have a number of [developers] . . . We're represented by Red Storm Entertainment, White Wolf, TimeLine, that's all I know of. Any other developers here? Okay. Red Storm, TimeLine, White Wolf are here, so, you know your comments are being heard by game developers.

Katharine: Additionally, I also serve as a moderator on Nihilistic's message boards. They're the creators of Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption, the computer game, which some of you may have. Some of you may know me as Banshee, either on that board, or on WomenGamers.com. So, if you have any feedback that you want to provide them, I can get it directly to Ray and the gang.

Mur: So anyway, we're just saying that if you have venting or comments, you're not talkin' into the wind! (smiles) So, um, do you want to start with computer or . . .

Rachelle: Computer.

Mur: Let's start with computer! (laughs, turns to Katharine.) Well, do you want me to turn it over . . . ? (Katharine smiles and shrugs, Mur laughs and says wryly:)

We planned this really well.

Katharine: We tried. (laughs)

Mur: Well, I just found out the panel was accepted last week! (laughs) So, um, basically there are several issues. Of course, there's the basic issue of what the characters look like in games, and what everyone thinks of that. Female characters. I think, actually, a new thing that's come up has been all the online role-playing - EverQuest, Asheron's Call, all those things. Do you play those? Do you like the women characters? Those of you who are women, do you play women characters? What do you think of the art?

Female Audience Member #1: Um, where to start? (inaudible) . . . I think unless you get the armor, the women need more clothes. (Audience laughs.) (inaudible) . . . and, although folks don't seem to worry about it in real life, it's definitely sexist. The men aren't running around naked, the women shouldn't be running around naked. But, on the other hand, the way the men are drawn, I don't (inaudible due to audience laughter) . . . it's not my fault that the way the women are drawn is more aesthetically pleasing! But it's definitely sexist that they don't choose to put clothes on the women.

Mur: So the men don't show . . . I actually don't play [MMORPGs] - I couldn't sink the time into it, but, so, the men don't show up naked, or . . .

Female Audience Member #1: No. The women's clothes are, like, they'll be in long skirts, but they'll be all the way up to their hips, where the guys will be in boots and pants.

Katharine: [So what you're saying is that] The armor is not practical.

Female Audience Member #1: It's not something you'd be running through the woods with a very large sword in, no! (Audience laughs.)

Katharine: That's actually been a criticism of fantasy RPGs that I've heard in general, and the good news is as far as where we were last year versus where we are this year, at least some developers are hearing our feedback and hearing this. I spoke with Trent Oster and some of the other people at BioWare who are producing Neverwinter Nights, which some of you may be familiar with. I spoke with them Tuesday, and in spite of some of the preview shots and screens you may have seen, where you saw a scantily-clad woman, this woman is actually not in the game at all. She was a test model; they nicknamed her "Dana Scully, Warrior Princess," (room laughter) and she was simply there to test then - she's not there at all [now]. The women are being designed with the same armor structure as the men.

Additionally, something that many women have stated is very important to them is being able to play [female] characters. Not only are they going to be able to play a female character, but you're going to be able to choose your body type. They are doing something called phenotypes, where you can choose ectomorph, endomorph, and mesomorph body types, I believe. So you will have full armor, you will be protected, you won't have your assets out there unprotected. (Laughter from audience.)

Female Audience Member #2: Well, I think in regards to clothing, that's one of the effects of armor is that, you know if you've ever worn a bulletproof vest, it doesn't accentuate, it doesn't mold. (Audience laughter.) I mean, plate armor is plate armor. It makes you look flat, and so why aren't women drawn as the armor would actually make them, to reach any sort of level of reality that you could connect with, all right? Xena, Warrior Princess armor isn't armor, and so I think just in terms of that, it's maybe not body type as much as just practical clothing. Real clothing with real silhouettes! We have squishy bits - they go in! (Much laughter from the audience.)

Female Audience Member #3: I don't play Asheron's Call, and, fortunately, when I started in games, I played Quake, and I know in Quake you're allowed, you know, you don't have to be a tall, beautiful skinny beauty. You can be a big, burly woman, you know? You could choose your body type, whereas I think games in general have a long way to go. I do think that now they're saying "Yeah, okay, we need to take a look at this," and it's not a false hope. (inaudible) . . . you know, marketing schemes really aren't great, they don't take you seriously . . . (inaudible) . . . with something like Quake, you don't have to be blonde and perfect, and I appreciate that.

Mur: Actually, yeah, Quake has never used sex to sell, and there are a number of games that have tried to use sex to sell: Forsaken, Deathtrap Dungeon . . .

Several audience members: Tomb Raider.

Mur: Well, Tomb Raider was a good game, but there are a lot of games that have used sex to sell but they tanked, so, has anybody figured that out yet? (Room laughs.)

Female Audience Member #4: As a woman buyer, I don't object to them using sex to sell, I'd just like them to occasionally use sex to sell to me. (Many yes responses from around the room, applause.)

Male Audience Member #1: Keep in mind, we have come a long way. Twenty years ago we would have been having this conversation, asking why are the women always bimbo sidekicks, as opposed to . . .

Mur: Or "Where are the women?" (laughs. Much audience agreement and laughter.)

Male Audience Member #1: Princess Leia is a long way from the old "I'm gonna break a nail if I help you! I'm just a weakling!"

Katharine: Or the pink collar stereotype of the secretary helping the detective, or anything like that.

Mur: Or hindering. (laughs)

Katharine: Or hindering! (laughs)

Male Audience Member #1: He was always the one to take risks. Now we have Scully, half the time, rescuing Mulder!

Female Audience Member #5: I agree with you that I think we have come a long way. However, I still think there are some barriers in marketing. The example I'm thinking of is when you watch Saturday morning cartoons, and you see the commercials for the computers, and you've got the Hot Wheels ones for the boys and the Barbie cute pink colors for the girls. I get really pissed off when I see those commercials, because I think that they're separating, and [saying] "Okay, girls are going to want to learn how to put makeup on," and (inaudible) . . . "The boys, they like race cars and stuff," and so I think there's still a vast difference in treatment.

Female Audience Member #6: Have you seen the commercials for the game Life? They showed a little boy dreaming about getting married, and I thought that was such an original idea. They were just advertising it - the little girl was dreaming of becoming a doctor, and the little boy was dreaming of growing up and getting married.

Katharine: I think both of those are good points.

Male Audience Member #2: Speaking of reversals, the models of the large-breasted women are usually played by the men, rather than the women! (Audience laughs.)

Female Audience Member #7: (inaudible) . . . and that's the point. In real life, if somebody walks out of the house, they're going to choose what they want, and whatever they want to be covered with. They may be drawn with perfect figures as well, but they're not by any means a perfect woman. But, I like it better because you can choose (inaudible) . . . what your facial expressions are, and I also like the fact that the women seem to automatically get what the men get, and they're not being chased around by male characters.

Katharine: Well, unless it's an online RPG where you have live male players playing! (Audience laughs.)

Female Audience Member #8: I think in the older gaming areas we've had a lot more progress in basically making more accessible characters for female players than in the younger audience. Like she said, the Hot Wheels and the Barbie - I'd say that area is still as divergent as it was before.

Katharine: (Nods to Female Audience Member #5 in acknowledgment.) I think they've come out with a Barbie computer?

Female Audience Member #8: They have! My boss bought it for his daughter! It is PINK! It is the most God-awful thing I've ever seen in my life!

Katharine: Farah Houston, over at GamesDomain.com, which is a British gaming site, had a periodic column called "The Pink Aisle," which I thought really summed up how women get relegated, or have traditionally been relegated, to one aisle of the store. Some of you Macintosh gamers may feel some sympathy there. (Audience laughs.) I'm one, too - it's a "we" thing. (laughs) But . . . where there's one aisle of the store, it's pink; that's where you're expected to go, if you're allowed to be in the store at all. That's as much as is there for you. Everything else is marketed to guys in the computer store. So, that's something that we've heard a lot of frustration on, that women feel like they have no place in a gaming store. (To next questioner.) Yes?

Male Audience Member #3: Well, still, a larger percentage of the population on computers is still male . . . you can look at the numbers and see . . . (Much outcry from room.)

Katharine: Actually . . . (Stands up, holding IDSA chart, to much applause and laughter.)

Rachelle: (laughing) She's got a chart!

Katharine: (Walks over in front of the questioner.) Actually, the latest statistics indicate that 43 percent of the gaming population is female, which is a far greater number than probably most of you thought. As a matter of fact, could I get a show of hands as far as how many of you consider yourselves to be casual gamers versus hardcore gamers?

Male Audience Member #4: How many hours would that be a week, and for which?

Katharine: At this time, we're just talking about computer games . . . let's say four hours a week for casual.

(Approximately ten people raise their hands.)

Katharine: Okay. If you're above four, if you are a hardcore gamer, please raise your hand. (The vast majority of the room raises hands. People look around and laugh.)

Okay! (Katharine laughs and nods.) Never ask a question that you don't already know the answer to. (Audience laughs.) This is pretty much as I expected. What we've noticed a lot in general in the gaming press lately is that the casual gamer is becoming a lot more powerful. We here are an important minority, we are the minority that has supported game developers all along, but, as more people get online, as more people get into computers in general - across the board, male or female - we're seeing a strong surge in computer gaming. Now, this includes statistics from people who play backgammon online with Yahoo!; people who are playing trivia online, it includes multiplayer gaming - it includes both the hardcore and the casual aspects. And so, while the statistics are meaningful, they're meaningful in the context that they include casual gamers, and a lot of these casual gamers do happen to be . . . they found that while a lot of women are playing backgammon, playing cards, et cetera, online, not as many - although this room certainly looks GREAT! - (Audience laughter) - not as many are serious, committed, hardcore female gamers, which means that we, as a minority, have to be a little bit louder.

Male Audience Member #4: Where would you wage the battle? The marketing office? I'm the father of a daughter. I'm not gonna raise her on BARBIE!

(Loud applause and laughter from the room.)

Female Audience Member #9: (inaudible) . . . informed parent, the one who doesn't go in the computer room, (inaudible) . . . smaller children, and is just learning. The thing is that if they would quit just advertising to boys only on the games . . . I mean, I would've played Quake when I was little!

Male Audience Member #5: I've noticed that the future of women in gaming is gonna change from the smaller companies. For example, with larger companies, [they] just do what trends set. For example, Larry Elmore has a new game coming out. He had a woman in armor; they made her change into a dress. The higher executives in these companies go "Fantasy is this way, and that's the way we're going to portray it." So, in the future, the actual changes are gonna come from the smaller companies when they get a couple of good successes and hits with what they're doing. Then, of course, all the big marketing people will follow. At least, that's the way I perceive it, and that's what's happening in my world.

Mur: Well actually, to address the whole marketing thing, I'm in charge of the web site, but the web site is actually under marketing because they say there are two ways to find out, two ways to reach the people. You know, the web site is a big marketing tool, so they put me in marketing. I don't have a marketing background, so I'm learning real quick as I go along! (laughter)

Another thing I'm in charge of is buying all the online advertising, and it's really interesting when these sites come to me to sell me their advertising and they show me their demographics, and they're like, "Yeah, and the site's 97 percent male! And it's . . . " Somebody even said "The site's 96% male, of course." And, you know, maybe they don't think that . . . I know that there are a lot of women in our company who aren't gamers, and so . . . but that offended me. I'm sitting here going "Oh, yeah, of course, chicks don't game, ohhh, nooo . . ." (Audience laughs.) "The door's that way!" So, and actually I got support from my boss. I don't buy advertising on sites that totally irritate me and offend me as a female gamer. I don't do it. And actually, we have a problem now, not a problem . . . but one of our next titles that's coming out is the Anne McCaffrey Freedom game, and we're trying to appeal to . . . (Katharine does a Vanna White, pointing to Mur's Freedom shirt. Mur laughs.) I have this shirt. (Audience laughs.) And we're trying to appeal to men and women. Anne McCaffrey has a strong readership in men and women, so we're thinking maybe if we could grab Anne McCaffrey readers who aren't gamers to play the game, you know, we're trying to figure out how to reach these people. But I'm actually having a little bit of a problem saying "Okay, I wanna advertise on this all-women's site," and they're like, "Well, we don't want to put all our advertising money on women or all our advertising money on men," and I'm like, "Well, I'd like to put a little bit over here just to see how it works," and you know, just advertising to one demographic if it's not the 18 to 35 male may be a little difficult to do at first. So, yeah, I am arguing it, I'm trying real hard, and they're still leery about throwing money over there.

Katharine: I think that's a great point. I mean, as Mur points out, a lot of times it seems to me, and what our data has shown, is that a lot of times web sites seem to be self-determining. In other words, their content chooses who comes to the site: it's self-selecting. For example, over at WomenGamers we're 79% female, whereas over at Computer Games Online, they're 2% female. And that makes sense - I mean, our site's name is WomenGamers.com! (laughs) It makes sense that more women are going to be there, but Computer Games Online, on the flip side, is a more general gaming site. It has general gaming content, so what about about their content is alienating females? Obviously we have a demographic of females out there who want to learn about games: they're coming to our site. One of the things that we've seen an improvement in in the last year is many more gaming sites for women. There's certainly GameGirlz, which was a pioneer; WomenGamers, which is my site. I can think of at least two or three more that I have bookmarked. (Turns to Mur.) GrrlGamer, I think, is one?

Mur: GrrlGamer.

Katharine: I think that - that's the pink one? (laughter) [Author note: I swear, this was just an information question, not a criticism.]

Mur: (laughs) Tell 'em how you feel.

Katharine: I'm shy! (laughs) So, we have seen a marked increase in that, and to me that says that there are more female gamers out there, and right now, they're not getting what they need. And so, we're seeing more people, at least, trying to provide that, but currently the regular gaming sites are not, and I think one of the reasons is marketing: that they're not marketing to women, they're not approaching women, and so there's not much reason for women to approach them in return.

Female Audience Member #10: Hi, I just wanted to make a comment. I was working for Sony Online Entertainment until just a couple of months ago, and we've done EverQuest and stuff, so I've seen all the demographics, and, like, Jeopardy! Online and Wheel of Fortune online are much more female-heavy, and then of course EverQuest is like 85% male. But the female population is going up on there, and I think the reason was, and that's more I think the way these games seem to go is because, um, the . . . it's an environment where there's a community, too. I mean, you can get to know people and you can talk to them and stuff: it's not just strictly going out and killing things. And I think that is the way gaming's gonna work online with women getting more involved is to make it more where it's not just brainless . . .

Katharine: More of a social connection?

Female Audience Member #10: I just think it's important for me as a female to talk to people and get to know other people.

Female Audience Member #11: I mean, killing things is a challenge; it's tough, of course. But after a while, it's just so many different things that your character is hacking and slashing.

Mur: Gameplay?

Female Audience Member #12: Yeah.

Mur: Yeah. Actually, does anybody [here] play The Sims?

(Many voices of assent.)

Mur: That game . . . (Shakes head, laughing.) . . . is just . . .

Male Audience Member #6: Turning off free will is just too much of a hassle! (Laughter.)

Male Audience Member #7: Well, they're supposed to be making another thing for The Sims coming out that will interact with SimCity 3000, so you can actually see them going to their jobs.

Mur: Is it SimCity 3000?

Female Audience Member #13: It's gonna be Livin' Large, or Simsville. Livin' Large is just an attachment, an expansion. [ Note: SimsVille will be a different game that will allow families from The Sims to be imported to populate towns.]

Katharine: (Addressing folks still coming in.) Y'all squeeze in. If you want to, come up on the sides.

Female Audience Member #14: Yeah, I'm just curious as a parent of a very (holds up baby) . . . he will be a gamer, I have no doubt. (Big laugh from the audience.)

Katharine: You're starting him early! (More laughter.)

Female Audience Member #14: And I don't game! (Laughs.) I swear to God, I'm not opposed to getting [him] into them . . .

(Audience laughter.)

Female Audience Member #15: You say that now! (More laughter.)

Female Audience Member #14: I've got my own obsession: it's called X-Files! (Laughs.) But what can I look for, as a novice, to make sure it's okay for him and that it's also non-sexist?

Mur: The first thing to look for right now, there's something similar to the Motion Picture Association, which is the ESRB, which is the Electronic Software Rating Board [Note: it's the Entertainment Software Ratings Board]. They rate software, and so you'll see a little stamp - E is for Everyone, and that's . . . they rate it on sex, violence, blood, swear words, they rate all that stuff. So, E is for Everyone, T is for Teen (I think it's 13 and up); M is Mature. So that's the first thing to look for. Anything else . . . (She shrugs.) I think they've got some suggestions. (Gestures to audience member.)

Female Audience Member #2: Any game in which your character is a hand is going to be a gun game. (Audience laughs.) Sometimes they'll have a picture - what will be there is a room, or a corridor, and a hand, or a gun. Generally you can ask the software people, just ask them: "Can you see the whole thing, or are you a hand?"

Male Audience Member #8: You do have to approach it the same way you do with television. Do you just let your child watch whatever they want without taking a look at it first? That doesn't mean you have to become a gamer, or a hardcore gamer, but you may have to sit down with them and have them show you what they're playing. I mean, I did it even for, oh, Rugrats. I love the Rugrats, but you never know when they'll sneak something in there! (Audience laughs.)

Female Audience Member #14: Are there good web sites to go look at?

Katharine: Yeah! I mean, I'm not trying to pimp WomenGamers at all, in spite of the t-shirts, I promise! (Audience laughs.) By the way, if you didn't get a card, contact me, please . . . (Holds up card, more laughter.) 'cause we're gonna choose winners. But, WomenGamers actually has a section, um, several sections. There's our Digital Women section, where we rate different female characters in games as far as how they score in terms of . . . are they just a body, or do they actually do things with the plot in the game? Do they have a brain as well as a pixel image? (Audience chuckles.) And, additionally, guidelines for parents - a family guide including what's the real content of this game as far as, okay, you can tell me it has a mature theme, but are they mature themes that maybe I'd be comfortable letting my child see, or is this something that I want him or her to stay away from for a while?

Mur: Let's take a couple more questions, and then start talking about the non-computer gaming side of things. So, anything, if you've got a comment about computer games, make it now.

Female Audience Member #16: I was gonna say, Family PC's monthly magazine is very, very good at going into a little bit more depth about talking about what would you want your children to play in a game, and it's been pretty consistent. You generally get the new releases as well as some of the ones that have become a little bit popular, so you get a good mix.

Female Audience Member #17: One of the things I've noticed in the past is some of the story games, such as, you . . . (inaudible) trying to figure out. Those have always been real popular with not only males but females as well because it's more like reading a book where you know your character as well as there's a guide to what's going on . . . like in a lot of the Final Fantasy games, Final Fantasy 7 . . .

Female Audience Member #18: The role-playing games seem to have made the most interesting characters just by their very nature. It's the ones where it's "Run, shoot; run, shoot" that have . . .

Mur: (Addressing another member of the audience.) Did you have a comment?

Male audience member #9: (Shakes head, no.)

Mur: Oh, I thought you had your hand up.

Male audience member #9: I'm waiting for the other side.

Mur: Okay, let's start on the other side.

(Second half of the panel continues with an interesting discussion on women and pen and paper gaming by Cynthia and Rachelle.)