You are right. Stereotypes save tons of cognitive time and energy. BUt you are wrong in that stereotype, by itself, is harmful. Prejudice is the real dangerous one. One you start to treat people differently because of a stereotype, this is where the harm occurs. You can guess about people left and right, but it doesnt matter if that's only a thought.
<br> My suggestion is that you stop trying so hard to put people in their boxes and let things happen as they happen. You'll find that the more you know someone, the less likely they are to fall into those neat containers. And until you get to know someone, you're the one at fault for any harm committed, because you're the one placing too much faith in what is an essentially untrustworthy indiciator of behavior.
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<br> --DavPilky
I can't fight that. He wins. Stereotypes aren't the problem, it is when people use them as their only information when they make decisions. Using just the stereotypes is prejudice. Using them as a guide is just plain normal.
You dont know what kind of "nice" I am. What you know about me you gleaned from some internet posts.
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<br> You see, I wouldn't give a girl an orange in hope for some future favor. I'd do it because I'm friendly like that. It's called being genuine. If she kept asking for oranges, I'd reconsider. See, its people who are continuously suckers who are doormats. I assert myself when I deem it necessary.
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<br> Unlike your friend, I don't live for the next five seconds when a woman will talk to me and give her praise until then. Those are the kind of one-way relationships I get the hell out of. You really really want to make me seem like your friend, but I'm probably not.
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<br> As a side note, I think you view women as far more manipulative and underhanded than they really are. SUrely, there are women who try to use you to get things, but there are women out there who aren't out to get you.
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<br> But you wrote a poem about your penis? What do I know?
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<br> Oh, I do know one thing, it, combined with your suspicions about women, reflect badly on your maturity.
<br> Really, I still can't figure out what your penis has to do with me.
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<br> --DavPilky
Let me begin by saying that I have absolutely no problem with women. I've been in a 7 year relationship with one of the most wonderful person I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. A more healthy and honest relationship you could never find. I don't think you'll find someone who has a higher opinion of women as people than myself.
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<br> The point of the last message was not to generalize all women into one evil stereotype. But it was meant to catagorize a single type of woman. I had hoped you would be smart enough to understand when the advice was applicable without implicit instructions.
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<br> I should clarify about the orange thing. Give oranges to the people who will appreciate it. I would give an orange to my nice-guy friend, but not my jerk friend. The difference is that I believe my nice-guy friend will appreciate the effort and understand that I am doing something for him because he is my friend. The jerk would just take an orange because he feels he deserves it, or even just take it to establish some sort of status change.
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<br> What I failed completely to explain was that yes, give the orange to the right person, but don't give the orange to the wrong person. The effects of which can be disasterous, and as subtle a gesture as it might be, can completely ruin your status with someone.
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<br> As for my maturity, I gladly lack it. Maturity is a slow death. You can be smart, responsible, and charismatic all without ever having an ounce of maturity. I find that maturity is nothing more than a weird sort of elitism; a stereotype by which people feel they must live by.
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<br> People believe that if one can understand the subtle nuances of the Seven Samurai that one would be too mature to find pleasure in something so shallow as Orgasmo. But that isn't true. It is just elitism talking. The mature choice would be to NOT write a poem about your penis, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. Why wouldn't I do something that I would enjoy? How do you know that writing a poem about your penis isn't fun? You know it isn't mature, but is it fun? I certainly thought so. You should try writing a poem about your genitals before you condem it.
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<br> The next time you decide to infer against someone's maturity, better check to see whether or not it is a compliment or an insult.
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I understand that stereotypes are dangerous, but I'm afraid they are quite required. It would be information overload having to understand every single person individually. It saves time, brain power, and potential disaster by using stereotypes. For instance, I walk into a room at a party. There are three girls that are potential candidates for a date. The clues they give in the way the stand, move, and talk are all there to help me decided which one is a winner and which ones are losers.
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<br> Stereotypes can be dangerous, but their very nature is unavoidable. They are part of the human brain and will be around as long as humans still use it. You spend your entire life building up prediction techniques on how people will react to things. Have you ever called it when a car changes lanes without using a blinker? Of course you have. It is because you've been driving so long that even the most subtle movements in a car give your subconscience idea of what its motives are. It doesn't matter if it is the president in that car, or if it is Shakespear.
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<br> Likewise with stereotypes. You use stereotypes to help your brain predict the actions and responses of other people. Something so simple as mismatched socks can be a huge window into someone's psyche. Having a bunch of such clues will undoubtedly lead one to create a catagory for them. If you often see mismatched socks on someone with a bowtie, it is a natural and honest thing for your brain to make a connection between the two things.
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<br> But yes, stereotypes are dangerous. Sometimes they are misleading, but far less often than one would think. Teenage pregnancy is a dangerous stereotype because almost all females are capable of getting pregnant, and becoming so can very well happen because of an accident. Statistically speaking, the majority of teenage pregnancies do happen to lower income families with not-so-bright teenagers (I happen to have a couple cousins who have a new baby everytime I see tham, and they are younger than 20). But that doesn't mean that it happens to everyone like that. It takes an exceptional person to look past stereotypes, but then those people normally have a reason to. Just because you feel for teenage pregnant girls doesn't mean you would extend the same courtesy to ...say... college drop-outs or inmates.
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<br> I guess what I'm arguing is that Stereotypes aren't evil. They aren't wrong and they certainly aren't something we need to get rid of. They offer far more than they take away. Everyone will eventually be a victim of stereotypes, but they benefit from them each and every day.
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<br> Funny enough, I have quite a stereotypical image of the person who originally wrote the article these comments are in reference to. I came to a site called Women-Gamers, which in itself presents a very tom-boy image. The article about a girl who likes Star Trek, Cars, and videogames only increases it. The author is upset because she gets judged by a stereotype that she actually fits into. But she is also upset because it is a stereotype she doesn't fit in.
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<br> Honestly, there will be no pleasing the author until she is always judged as an individual by every single person on this planet, and that will NEVER happen. Get over it and fight the fights you can win.
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<br> Just out of curiosity, how old are all you female gamers? I'll bet the majority of you are under 25 despite the fact that the average age of the male gamer is around 28. This is partly due to the fact that females got into the computer industry a generation or two after men. This current generation of females are the trail blazers. With each new generation, the number of female gamers will grow substantially. Pretty soon, female gamers won't be so uncommon that you'd need to create a web ring for them. So don't worry about the female gamer stereotype. They are just now beginning to grow into a group, and the stereotype is just man's way of trying to keep up. As it lessens its usefulness, new ones will be created. Trust me. Things will be amazingly different in a couple years.
FYI - I am a pretty happy person and I was just making an observation on human behavior. I don't care whether or not I fit into anyones image - and I can hardly say my article was a crying out for global social acceptance. Besides, socially insecure people would never post on a message board - It's like an open invitation for criticism - lol! I just smile and like to find the friends along the way
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I've attended the Game Developer's Conference the last three years running, and man, you should see how guys react when you tell them you're a *programmer*. Reactions range from guys who say, "I didn't know there WAS such a thing," to guys that just gape in awe, and don't know what to say.
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<br> My cousin wrote a HIGHLY relevant article at Silicon Salley about our adventures this year. Don't miss it:
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<br> http://www.siliconsalley.com/news/design/amybeth7.html
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<br> (And there's even a plug for womengamers.com in there )
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I've attended the Game Developer's Conference the last three years running, and man, you should see how guys react when you tell them you're a *programmer*. Reactions range from guys who say, "I didn't know there WAS such a thing," to guys that just gape in awe, and don't know what to say.
<br>
<br> My cousin wrote a HIGHLY relevant article at Silicon Salley about our adventures this year. Don't miss it:
<br>
<br> http://www.siliconsalley.com/news/design/amybeth7.html
<br>
<br> (And there's even a plug for womengamers.com in there )
<br>
Wonderful article! I believe I met her briefly at the Mattel session. We were all in the back shaking our heads in disappointment, in fact many people walked out of the session. Mattel isn't trying to make games for girls, they are trying to make games for Barbie girls.
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<br> PS-Try being one out of maybe 30 women at a LAN event of about 2000 people. People I didn't know would run up to me (and every other woman there), take a picture, and run off. It was like an invasion of privacy.
Women aren't that subtle. Ok, they are, but at the same time they aren't. Or rather...well...see, the signals are there, and they are as plain as day if you know where to look. They don't operate like men, so the only way to understand these signals is to be around women for long periods of time. I suggest wearing a dress and hanging out in locker rooms (but that is a different story altogether).
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<br> A good sign is if a girl hates you for no reason. One would think that people advance past playground relationships, but the just isn't the case. What can happen is that a girl is attracted to you, but can't classify those feelings easily. Love and hate aren't that far removed as you think. I'm engaged to my high school nemesis. Competition and violence can actually be a form of subversive flirting.
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<br> Believe it or not, playground politics work. Wonder why all the good guys/girls are taken by college, and completely gone after that? Because social standards start working into relationships, and there is more pressure for the other person to fit into your lifestyle rather than you having to change and adapt to theirs.
If a woman wants to play hard to get with me she'll find it doesn't work. Not only will I not like her, I'll just give up and look elsewhere. I've been rejected enoguh times for real to play that stupid game.
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<br> --DavPilky
Let me begin by saying that I have absolutely no problem with women. I've been in a 7 year relationship with one of the most wonderful person I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. A more healthy and honest relationship you could never find. I don't think you'll find someone who has a higher opinion of women as people than myself.
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<br> The point of the last message was not to generalize all women into one evil stereotype. But it was meant to catagorize a single type of woman. I had hoped you would be smart enough to understand when the advice was applicable without implicit instructions.
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<br> I should clarify about the orange thing. Give oranges to the people who will appreciate it. I would give an orange to my nice-guy friend, but not my jerk friend. The difference is that I believe my nice-guy friend will appreciate the effort and understand that I am doing something for him because he is my friend. The jerk would just take an orange because he feels he deserves it, or even just take it to establish some sort of status change.
<br>
<br> What I failed completely to explain was that yes, give the orange to the right person, but don't give the orange to the wrong person. The effects of which can be disasterous, and as subtle a gesture as it might be, can completely ruin your status with someone.
<br>
<br> As for my maturity, I gladly lack it. Maturity is a slow death. You can be smart, responsible, and charismatic all without ever having an ounce of maturity. I find that maturity is nothing more than a weird sort of elitism; a stereotype by which people feel they must live by.
<br>
<br> People believe that if one can understand the subtle nuances of the Seven Samurai that one would be too mature to find pleasure in something so shallow as Orgasmo. But that isn't true. It is just elitism talking. The mature choice would be to NOT write a poem about your penis, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. Why wouldn't I do something that I would enjoy? How do you know that writing a poem about your penis isn't fun? You know it isn't mature, but is it fun? I certainly thought so. You should try writing a poem about your genitals before you condem it.
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<br> The next time you decide to infer against someone's maturity, better check to see whether or not it is a compliment or an insult.
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No, I still think immaturity is bad. YOu see, someone who is mature might write a poem about their penis. But they would do it in the approriate context. You see, jumping from topic to topic randomly is just dumb. It inhibits the conversation by muddling the fact at hand.
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<br> And if maturity is elitism, fine. Me and the hundreds of billions of people who grew up know we're better than everybody else.
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<br> --DavPilky
Funny thing is, most "stats" (that is, scientific data) on this topic would lean toward your opponent's favor. Stereotypes are unavoidable. But prejudice is a different beast. Se my other post (near this one) to hearf all my thought on this matter.
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<br> --DP
Ah to be misundestood...
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<br> This back and forth with myself and whomever actually began b/c of a stereotypical statement about "nice" people that in the same breath spoke of doormatism. As you have said in god knows how many postings- you believe that you are not a doormat (and your nerver-ending determation to assert such a thing seems to point in that direction). Of course assuming that you are a doormat is not the end of the world. I wasn't saying that all assumptions have catastrophic implications. I was saying how off the mark stereptypes can be. From personal experience I have seen how far stereotypes can go (I hesitated to use the word prejudiced b/c it may seem as if they are related but differ in degree only but that is not the case -- but that's semantics).
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<br> And about stats here's the holy grail of info most scientist who deal with stats hate to admit (see any discusion of objectivity in the "soft" (i hate that term) sciences)-
<br> what you go searching for is what you will find.
<br>
<br> Dealing with statistical data and theory on a daily basis I know how one's theory influences one's findings. Given the fact that there is a mainstream in any field there tends to be an overwhelming amount of data proving one thing (surprisingly when the status quo is questioned there is also a volume of data that can be shown in the other direction. Unfortunately (or really it just the way of the world) more people toe the line and even when one wants to go against the grain they still have to assimilate in order to get certain things (like a full-professorship or tenure) (or they can just choose to say f*** it, keep their principals and try to forge new paths).
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<br> And as I said before. I am not naive. I don't live in a vacuum. I know how persistent stereotypes are. I just choose to call people on them. (And I also try to look within--hey I'm not immune and I would never pretend to be).
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<br> But next time someone insinuates that you're a doormat may be I'll turn my head. There are other battles and you are obviously capapable of fighting for yourself. And I know you neither asked for saving nor needed saving I just saw a lot of DP bashing out there and it amazed me how many people were making such glib assumptions about your character.
Wonderful article! I believe I met her briefly at the Mattel session. We were all in the back shaking our heads in disappointment, in fact many people walked out of the session. Mattel isn't trying to make games for girls, they are trying to make games for Barbie girls.
<br>
<br> PS-Try being one out of maybe 30 women at a LAN event of about 2000 people. People I didn't know would run up to me (and every other woman there), take a picture, and run off. It was like an invasion of privacy.
You'll have to forgive my humor on that subject, Atari, but it just reminded me like some satiric documentary 'In search of the elusive female gamer. Environment: LAN event.' *grin*
No, I still think immaturity is bad. YOu see, someone who is mature might write a poem about their penis. But they would do it in the approriate context. You see, jumping from topic to topic randomly is just dumb. It inhibits the conversation by muddling the fact at hand.
<br>
<br> And if maturity is elitism, fine. Me and the hundreds of billions of people who grew up know we're better than everybody else.
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<br> --DavPilky
Honestly, I think you are just a big stick in the mud. You dislike all these things (immaturity, topic changing, and opposing viewpoints come to mind), but I don't think you've really actually ever thought about why you don't like those things. What about my genital poem offended you? Why did it offend you? Are the reasons you were offended on your side of the boat, or my side? If it is your fault you were offended, how could prevent yourself from being offended at it? Do you know why I wrote a poem about my penis? Can you hazard a guess? How much do you believe in that guess? Are you positive that is the reason? How do you know?
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<br> Why don't you like immaturity? Have you ever given it more than 3 seconds thought, or did you just accept it as being bad? Have you ever seen times when immaturity was used in an effective and just manner? Have you ever seen a time when maturity was used improperly and people suffered for it? Do you ever do actions for the sake of others than for your own welfare? Is maturity one of these actions?
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<br> What about your love life? Ever thought about that? Why don't girls find you a threat? Why don't they see you as a potential mate? Is it their fault? Is it because the girls are so swept up with finding jerks to date? Should you find a girl who isn't like that, or wait until later in life when girls start looking for nice guys? What if it isn't their fault? What if the deciding factor in the entire equation is you? How would you handle that? Would you change or force them to change? Could you compromise? Are you willing to change who you are for the purpose of changing a lacking aspect of your life? If you aren't, then will you ever be able to fill that hole in your life? Why do you have such a high self esteem when you lack the very thing most people are judged on: relationships?
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<br> All I'm asking is that you question that which goes unquestioned. You are not the nice guy you think you are, and until you figure out why that statement is true, you will never be able to have one of those true love romances that you see in every movie and read about in every book.
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<br> The problem is YOU. The problem has always been you, and the problem will always be you. Not just in this one tiny instance, but in everything. If you have a problem with anything I say or do, the problem is something YOU created, not me. Everything you know about the universe came from YOUR eyes and YOUR brain. If you know something to be the absolute truth, that is only what your brain interpretted. Another person with another brain and pair of eyes could and will see things much differently.
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<br> Think.
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<br> It is amazing how people so rarely use that one thing that seperates them from livestock...their brains.
Ah to be misundestood...
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<br> This back and forth with myself and whomever actually began b/c of a stereotypical statement about "nice" people that in the same breath spoke of doormatism. As you have said in god knows how many postings- you believe that you are not a doormat (and your nerver-ending determation to assert such a thing seems to point in that direction). Of course assuming that you are a doormat is not the end of the world. I wasn't saying that all assumptions have catastrophic implications. I was saying how off the mark stereptypes can be. From personal experience I have seen how far stereotypes can go (I hesitated to use the word prejudiced b/c it may seem as if they are related but differ in degree only but that is not the case -- but that's semantics).
<br>
<br> And about stats here's the holy grail of info most scientist who deal with stats hate to admit (see any discusion of objectivity in the "soft" (i hate that term) sciences)-
<br> what you go searching for is what you will find.
<br>
<br> Dealing with statistical data and theory on a daily basis I know how one's theory influences one's findings. Given the fact that there is a mainstream in any field there tends to be an overwhelming amount of data proving one thing (surprisingly when the status quo is questioned there is also a volume of data that can be shown in the other direction. Unfortunately (or really it just the way of the world) more people toe the line and even when one wants to go against the grain they still have to assimilate in order to get certain things (like a full-professorship or tenure) (or they can just choose to say f*** it, keep their principals and try to forge new paths).
<br>
<br> And as I said before. I am not naive. I don't live in a vacuum. I know how persistent stereotypes are. I just choose to call people on them. (And I also try to look within--hey I'm not immune and I would never pretend to be).
<br>
<br> But next time someone insinuates that you're a doormat may be I'll turn my head. There are other battles and you are obviously capapable of fighting for yourself. And I know you neither asked for saving nor needed saving I just saw a lot of DP bashing out there and it amazed me how many people were making such glib assumptions about your character.
Actually, I wasn't trying to snub you with my last post. I was just saying that the data leaned against you on that one topic (whatever it was) is all.
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<br> As for data in the soft sciences, it's not necessarily true that you find what you're looking for. Especially if you have a good experiment set up. Even if the results of a given test are inconclusive, it often raises question and guides the next series of tests. I have confiedence in soft science, I really do.
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<br> --DavPilky
Ah to be misundestood...
<br>
<br> This back and forth with myself and whomever actually began b/c of a stereotypical statement about "nice" people that in the same breath spoke of doormatism. As you have said in god knows how many postings- you believe that you are not a doormat (and your nerver-ending determation to assert such a thing seems to point in that direction). Of course assuming that you are a doormat is not the end of the world. I wasn't saying that all assumptions have catastrophic implications. I was saying how off the mark stereptypes can be. From personal experience I have seen how far stereotypes can go (I hesitated to use the word prejudiced b/c it may seem as if they are related but differ in degree only but that is not the case -- but that's semantics).
<br>
<br> And about stats here's the holy grail of info most scientist who deal with stats hate to admit (see any discusion of objectivity in the "soft" (i hate that term) sciences)-
<br> what you go searching for is what you will find.
<br>
<br> Dealing with statistical data and theory on a daily basis I know how one's theory influences one's findings. Given the fact that there is a mainstream in any field there tends to be an overwhelming amount of data proving one thing (surprisingly when the status quo is questioned there is also a volume of data that can be shown in the other direction. Unfortunately (or really it just the way of the world) more people toe the line and even when one wants to go against the grain they still have to assimilate in order to get certain things (like a full-professorship or tenure) (or they can just choose to say f*** it, keep their principals and try to forge new paths).
<br>
<br> And as I said before. I am not naive. I don't live in a vacuum. I know how persistent stereotypes are. I just choose to call people on them. (And I also try to look within--hey I'm not immune and I would never pretend to be).
<br>
<br> But next time someone insinuates that you're a doormat may be I'll turn my head. There are other battles and you are obviously capapable of fighting for yourself. And I know you neither asked for saving nor needed saving I just saw a lot of DP bashing out there and it amazed me how many people were making such glib assumptions about your character.
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)
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